Gallardo 2004 clutch problem egear - Page 2 - Lamborghini Forum
 
  homeFORUMSGARAGECALENDARADSSTAFFINFO
Go Back   Lamborghini Forum > Discussion Groups > Model Specific Discussions > Gallardo

Lamborghini-Talk.com is the premier Lamborghini All Forum on the internet. Registered Users do not see the above ads.
Closed Thread
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #11 (permalink)  
Old 12-01-2019, 06:47 AM
Supporting Vendor
Silver Site Supporter
 
Join Date: Jul 26 2004
Location: California
Posts: 1,660
Gallery: 0
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drew Zee View Post
Right on. I think customers become happy when they make informed decisions. I’m sure you would agree.

Along that line, would you please address the concerns about the lack of ring gear balancing, as I described above?

Many thanks.

40 years of being a mechanical engineer does not make you an expert in clutches or E-gear. If it did, you would not burn up 4 new E-gear pumps. After burning up the first one, you should have known that something else is causing the pump to burn up. You and your mechanic in AZ couldn't figure it out so you used my mechanic that I introduced to the forum to fix your problem.

I have explained to you about the ring gear when we talked but you choose not to listen and not hear the facts. We balance our clutches to 10k rpm. The way it's balanced, it has enough tolerance that you can use a new ring gear or your own ring gear. Again that's because the way we set up and balance our clutches. If this clutch was installed in an engine that revved up to 18-20k rpm like previous F1 engines, then the ring gear would be balanced but it's not necessary in a Gallardo engine(the way we set it up). Even Valeo, manufacturer of Lamborghini and R8 clutches, don't require you to get a new ring gear for an R8 and also LP560. If you buy a pressure plate separately from Valeo, the pressure plate does not come with a ring gear. A lot of people use their old ring gear.

We modify Valeo pressure plate for our HT200 and HT300 but HT350 starts with our own billet aluminum pressure plate. When we get a pressure plate from Valeo, sometimes they have a batch that comes with a ring gear and sometimes it doesn't. It makes no difference. That's why we have never had any vibration at high rpm with our clutches. As I showed you before, we have a customer with 80k miles and he takes it racing a lot and there is no vibration. As I said before, we have sold over 2,000 clutches and not even one with any kind of vibrations. You have not installed our clutch. You have not driven our clutch and you have not shown even one customer of ours with a vibration. Please stop spreading false information.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Sean
Hi Tech Exotic

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Specializing in Kevlar clutches for
Lamborghini and Ferrari for over 20 years

1-888-456-0437

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #12 (permalink)  
Old 12-01-2019, 09:13 AM
Drew Zee's Avatar
Silver Supporter
Silver Site Supporter
 
Join Date: Dec 28 2018
Location: Sunny Arizona
Posts: 309
Gallery: 0
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hi Tech Exotic View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drew Zee View Post
Right on. I think customers become happy when they make informed decisions. I’m sure you would agree.

Along that line, would you please address the concerns about the lack of ring gear balancing, as I described above?

Many thanks.

40 years of being a mechanical engineer does not make you an expert in clutches or E-gear. If it did, you would not burn up 4 new E-gear pumps. After burning up the first one, you should have known that something else is causing the pump to burn up. You and your mechanic in AZ couldn't figure it out so you used my mechanic that I introduced to the forum to fix your problem.

I have explained to you about the ring gear when we talked but you choose not to listen and not hear the facts. We balance our clutches to 10k rpm. The way it's balanced, it has enough tolerance that you can use a new ring gear or your own ring gear. Again that's because the way we set up and balance our clutches. If this clutch was installed in an engine that revved up to 18-20k rpm like previous F1 engines, then the ring gear would be balanced but it's not necessary in a Gallardo engine(the way we set it up). Even Valeo, manufacturer of Lamborghini and R8 clutches, don't require you to get a new ring gear for an R8 and also LP560. If you buy a pressure plate separately from Valeo, the pressure plate does not come with a ring gear. A lot of people use their old ring gear.

We modify Valeo pressure plate for our HT200 and HT300 but HT350 starts with our own billet aluminum pressure plate. When we get a pressure plate from Valeo, sometimes they have a batch that comes with a ring gear and sometimes it doesn't. It makes no difference. That's why we have never had any vibration at high rpm with our clutches. As I showed you before, we have a customer with 80k miles and he takes it racing a lot and there is no vibration. As I said before, we have sold over 2,000 clutches and not even one with any kind of vibrations. You have not installed our clutch. You have not driven our clutch and you have not shown even one customer of ours with a vibration. Please stop spreading false information.
To clarify, I have not spread any false information, so you can stop right there. I have merely challenged your claims, which to this point, still have not been substantiated by hard data, but instead by innuendo and inference. It is what it is and it looks like that’s the best you can do.

As a site sponsor, you should be prepared for, and constructively respond to, technical questions regarding the products that you are offering, rather than taking such questions as a personal affront. It shouldn’t be that that difficult to do if you’ve truly done the analysis.

As I recommended to you in previous phone discussions, you should probably have this data available to potential buyers upon request, or even as part of a certification package for the clutch assembly. I offered my help to you regarding this topic but never heard back. The offer still stands.

By the way, the mechanic that you refer to is not your mechanic. He is on this forum and operates independently, and is no way associated with your business. I actually met him through someone else and not you. He spent a week at my house to work through the e-gear issues, and is one of the best Lamborghini mechanics that I have ever met. For anyone whom is interested in his contact information, please PM me.

And you are certainly correct that I will never install one of your clutches. To each his own, but I’ve done my due diligence and it’s simply not worth the risk to my machine over the long run. The exorbitant cost and unknown risks far outweigh any advantage over OEM in my book.
__________________
2008 Gallardo Spyder, gated manual, Fabspeed Supersport X-Pipes w/Larini Sports Cats
2004 Viper SRT-10 (bone stock, but not for long)
2003 Viper SRT-10, Paxton Supercharged
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

2001 Viper ACR, Paxton Supercharged
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

2001 Viper RT/10
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

1995 Viper RT/10
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by Drew Zee; 12-01-2019 at 09:47 AM.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Quick reply to this message
  #13 (permalink)  
Old 12-01-2019, 04:45 PM
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 19 2014
Posts: 15
Gallery: 0
Default

This is a great debate but I came here asking for some help on what it might be, I'm not here to buy a new clutch because mine was just remade and I already paid for it, I'm not going to just buy a new expensive kevlar one to put it in place and maybe have the same problem I'm having because the problem might not be the clutch itself, as you have said yourself not going in reverse seems to be a clutch problem, but I said that was already solved and the car now goes in reverse properly, it just bumps hard on acceleration.
I mentioned I'm a used car dealer, I'm not going to invest in a brand new kevlar clutch because that makes no sense, what I could do if it really is a clutch problem is buy a used original clutch and put in place, used car used clutch, and at least it's original, and of course a much cheaper solution.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Quick reply to this message
 
  #14 (permalink)  
Old 12-01-2019, 05:02 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 12 2014
Location: Beverly Hills / Malibu
Posts: 996
Gallery: 0
Default

I have no horse in the race, but I’ll say that regardless of your feelings on the Kevlar clutch, the issue is that your clutch has not been rebuilt properly. The eGear system is very sensitive and has a bunch of different settings that can be played around with on top of how sensitive tolerances are.

You decided to try to save a grand on a clutch job and now have realized that a Lamborghini with a computerized clutch has higher tolerances than a Subaru. Sorry dude it blows, because you’re now underwater on the car. You will need to replace the clutch, having paid for a bad rebuilt one doesn’t change that.

Next time, replace the clutch with an OEM part at a solid exotic shop or, better yet, at a dealer. You should have taken it to the dealer and gotten a snap done on the car prior to buying it— these cars are nightmares if not properly maintained. Especially the pre-LP cars that have no real Audi blood.
__________________
ATTN: Modern Lambo Owners–
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


2011 Lamborghini 570-4 Performante
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Quick reply to this message
  #15 (permalink)  
Old 12-01-2019, 05:05 PM
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 19 2014
Posts: 15
Gallery: 0
Default

I know the first lamborghinis are pain, I've had 3 of these first ones and it's one problem after the other... do you thinking buying an original used clutch and putting it in place will solve everything?
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Quick reply to this message
  #16 (permalink)  
Old 12-01-2019, 05:14 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 12 2014
Location: Beverly Hills / Malibu
Posts: 996
Gallery: 0
Default

EGear clutches get replaced when the car no longer goes into gear. Nobody pays to do the clutch job until they need to, so any used clutch you find will not fix the issue as it is already worn down to a low enough point to where the car doesn’t drive properly.
__________________
ATTN: Modern Lambo Owners–
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


2011 Lamborghini 570-4 Performante
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Quick reply to this message
  #17 (permalink)  
Old 12-01-2019, 05:44 PM
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 05 2018
Location: London UK
Posts: 20
Gallery: 0
Default

I run a independent lambo specialist workshop in london also a highly trained engineer. I've replaced poorly manufactured kevlar/upgrade clutches and all because they are unreliable, unpredictable, vibrations are bad in some cases(mainly on murcies) and I have always replaced with genuine balanced assemblies from Lamborghini. The clutch kits come with a certification of testing and calibration. In all clutch jobs I always also replace the release bearing, sleeve if worn and also flush out the egear system prior to final bleeding and purging, so far no problems at all even with twin turbo gallardos iv' built using the superleggera clutch kits, no issues.

I have installed 2 kevlar clutches in my manual murcie when i owned it and both times the clutch was unreliable, unpredictable and vibrations were the biggest problem, in the end the third clutch was OEM stock and all the problems went away. Removing engine and transmisison is no joke when its down to re manufactured parts, There is a reason why lamborghini only sell a fully balanced assembly. Just replaced an Aventador clutch, no issues!

In my opinion the clutch wear is dependent on how the car is driven, clutch temperature, take off technique and slow speed maneuvering such as parking etc. Kevlar clutches need a special technique to wear in and bed in, they will burn out easy if the bedding in procedure is not followed, this doesnt always result in slipping clutch, the friction materials can get cooked and not grip properly and kvelar is more sensitive than stock clutch for bedding in.

Agree with Hi Tech on ring gear balancing not being a main factor, the ring gear is a finely machined part and very accurate, balancing and vibrations are not a concern from the ring gear itself. The OEM clutch kits come balanced with a mark/line to make the flywheel position to the cover plate position match and the 2 parts are perfectly balanced if installed correctly. Again a bedding in procedure is to be followed and adjusments to PIS need to be made to get the enagement smooth and jerk free. PIS adjustments are essential on both preLP and Lp cars including murcie.

Egear cars are sensitive to clutch take up engagement. Some upgrade clutches have very strong springs and make the final take up harsh or jerky especially at slow speeds and stop start traffic situations , the E gear system is very good and reliable if its serviced and setup correctly but at the same time its operated by PWM signals
which control the clutch control solenoids. This is also a factor with stronger springed clutches where the egear cannot always adapt the engagement. The egear system relies on friction/slip ratio to determine clutch engagement moments between engine revolutions, stall threshold rpm and also transmission rpm signals, all these rpm signals let the egear know when and how to adapt engine rpm and when release the clutch, so if the friction material and spring pressure changes so does the engagement factor!

It seems there is either a clutch issue or release bearing issue, or both with the car in question. Only way to find out is to remove and start again and replace with known good parts, but this time check out all the components involved! highly recommend oem part and a proper setup before and after bedding in and again after 500 miles
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Quick reply to this message
  #18 (permalink)  
Old 12-01-2019, 07:48 PM
Supporting Vendor
Silver Site Supporter
 
Join Date: Jul 26 2004
Location: California
Posts: 1,660
Gallery: 0
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SupercarService View Post
I run a independent lambo specialist workshop in london also a highly trained engineer. I've replaced poorly manufactured kevlar/upgrade clutches and all because they are unreliable, unpredictable, vibrations are bad in some cases(mainly on murcies) and I have always replaced with genuine balanced assemblies from Lamborghini. The clutch kits come with a certification of testing and calibration. In all clutch jobs I always also replace the release bearing, sleeve if worn and also flush out the egear system prior to final bleeding and purging, so far no problems at all even with twin turbo gallardos iv' built using the superleggera clutch kits, no issues.

I have installed 2 kevlar clutches in my manual murcie when i owned it and both times the clutch was unreliable, unpredictable and vibrations were the biggest problem, in the end the third clutch was OEM stock and all the problems went away. Removing engine and transmisison is no joke when its down to re manufactured parts, There is a reason why lamborghini only sell a fully balanced assembly. Just replaced an Aventador clutch, no issues!

In my opinion the clutch wear is dependent on how the car is driven, clutch temperature, take off technique and slow speed maneuvering such as parking etc. Kevlar clutches need a special technique to wear in and bed in, they will burn out easy if the bedding in procedure is not followed, this doesnt always result in slipping clutch, the friction materials can get cooked and not grip properly and kvelar is more sensitive than stock clutch for bedding in.

Agree with Hi Tech on ring gear balancing not being a main factor, the ring gear is a finely machined part and very accurate, balancing and vibrations are not a concern from the ring gear itself. The OEM clutch kits come balanced with a mark/line to make the flywheel position to the cover plate position match and the 2 parts are perfectly balanced if installed correctly. Again a bedding in procedure is to be followed and adjusments to PIS need to be made to get the enagement smooth and jerk free. PIS adjustments are essential on both preLP and Lp cars including murcie.

Egear cars are sensitive to clutch take up engagement. Some upgrade clutches have very strong springs and make the final take up harsh or jerky especially at slow speeds and stop start traffic situations , the E gear system is very good and reliable if its serviced and setup correctly but at the same time its operated by PWM signals
which control the clutch control solenoids. This is also a factor with stronger springed clutches where the egear cannot always adapt the engagement. The egear system relies on friction/slip ratio to determine clutch engagement moments between engine revolutions, stall threshold rpm and also transmission rpm signals, all these rpm signals let the egear know when and how to adapt engine rpm and when release the clutch, so if the friction material and spring pressure changes so does the engagement factor!

It seems there is either a clutch issue or release bearing issue, or both with the car in question. Only way to find out is to remove and start again and replace with known good parts, but this time check out all the components involved! highly recommend oem part and a proper setup before and after bedding in and again after 500 miles
I agree you with you 100%. A poorly manufactured Kevlar clutch is not worth the money. If a Kevlar clutch is not set up correctly, it will have harsh take off with a lot of vibration/bucking and some of them will not last even 1,000 miles. That's why I always say that all Kevlar clutches are not the same. We don't use cheap and low quality Kevlar. I know what you mean about a Kevlar clutch in a Murci. If it's not set up right and if you don't use high quality Kevlar, you will have shifting problem and harsh take off. Here is a customer of ours who bought a poorly manufactured Kevlar clutch for his Murci. He had harsh take off and shifting problem. He contacted us and replaced it with our Kevlar clutch. Our Kevlar clutch was smooth in take off and no more vibration. The shifting was smooth again and no issues with reverse. No more harsh take off.

Please read post #173 by howard77

https://www.lamborghini-talk.com/vbf...tml#post185253

Royalsteez, your manufactured clutch was not set up correctly and that's why you had reverse problem before and 1st gear slipping now. When you had a reverse problem, they probably adjusted PIS and loosened it up so it would go in reverse but that will slip the clutch more. That's why your clutch is slipping in 1st gear.

We have a Kevlar clutch that's priced very close to a stock clutch. I agree with A.M. You should not buy a used clutch because you don't know how much meat is on the clutch and you're back to square one. Try to find a new OEM clutch that someone has bought but for some reason they don't need it anymore. I have had customers who either sold their Lambo or crashed their Lambo and bought a clutch ahead of time so they don't need it anymore. If I come across one, I will let you know.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Sean
Hi Tech Exotic

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Specializing in Kevlar clutches for
Lamborghini and Ferrari for over 20 years

1-888-456-0437

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Quick reply to this message
  #19 (permalink)  
Old 12-01-2019, 10:35 PM
FL_Beachman's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 25 2017
Location: Boca Raton, FL
Posts: 282
Gallery: 0
Send a message via Skype™ to FL_Beachman
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drew Zee View Post
Right on. I think customers become happy when they make informed decisions. I’m sure you would agree.

Along that line, would you please address the concerns about the lack of ring gear balancing, as I described above?

Many thanks.
Drew,
Being an aerospace engineer has absolutely zero relation to understanding a kevlar clutch also considering you do not have one on your G- I own a 2004 G with a Hitech Kevlar clutch, I am a mechanical engineer and unlike you I have built multiple cars for street, drag strip and road courses and as they say I know a thing or two about rotational balance and drive line geometry and how they are related. The hitech clutch is day and night difference over the OEM, faster shift, smoother movement at high rpm shifts and zero vibration. I have taken my G over 175MPH of times and some for extended periods no issues at all, I have never experienced any vibration in high rpm shifts. Its possible to experience vibration at high speed shift from the front differential as the load is being transfer to get more grip-100% unrelated to the clutch. Ring gear? one does not "transfer" the ring gear its part of the assembly unless of course you have never actually seen one. And if so taking a gear from one assembly to another will guarantee its not balanced even a few grams difference at 8000rpm will make a huge difference that's like taking a set of balance rods from one engine putting them in another with the assumption you did not alter the rotational weight and balance which is exactly what you have done. I would highly recommended the hitech clutch to anyone with a G or an R8 and no i do not work for Hitech. This thread originated with a clutch problem which is most likely an egear software and/or pis issue not the actual clutch which only does what it is told from the input. Sure fire clutch killers include backing up steep inclines, driving up a steep incline slowly (flat bed tow truck) rolling back and forth on an incline will do it every time.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Quick reply to this message
  #20 (permalink)  
Old 12-01-2019, 10:51 PM
Drew Zee's Avatar
Silver Supporter
Silver Site Supporter
 
Join Date: Dec 28 2018
Location: Sunny Arizona
Posts: 309
Gallery: 0
Default

Genuinely appreciate the feedback and commentary, and also for showing solid support for your friend. I actually wasn’t going to jump back into this discussion, as I thought I had already made my point, but unfortunately had to because of some of your statements and assumptions.

Let’s begin with your statement about my background. It is quite brash on your part to make suppositions regarding my mechanical abilities and experiences versus yours. You have no idea who I am, what I’ve done, or what I’m capable of technically, as compared to you. I’m quite cool with keeping it that way...lol.

Have you balanced M600 or M1600 reaction wheels for GPS satellites that allow you to talk on your phone or even record the type of response that you just did? It sounds like your real-life experiences in the ring balancing world are unfortunately limited, despite the claims you have made to the contrary.

But anyhoo, if you’ve been paying attention, I’ve shared the fact that I did indeed buy one of HiTech’s clutches and have seen it both assembled and disassembled. I do have to share with you that both Lamborghini shops (highly reputable shops in the Scottsdale area - PM me for names if you wish) that I discussed this with were quite entertained when that Kevlar clutch arrived with no match-balanced ring gear. They wanted nothing to do with it. Both shops refused to install it when they were told point-blank by HiTech to simply pull off the old ring gear and slap it on the new clutch. Both shops also refused to provide a warranty.

Red flags...no? I then returned the clutch to HiTech. Speaking of which, you may want to ask them about their return policy.

The principles of physics do not change. My requests for hard data have largely gone unanswered, likely on purpose, because there is none to support the 300% numbers that are being haphazardly disseminated by non-technical people and jewelry salesmen.

I appreciate your position on this subject, and request that you also appreciate mine. It’s obvious that we are all passionate about our machines and simply want the best for them. Everyone gets to make their own choices in this world and gets to live with them.
__________________
2008 Gallardo Spyder, gated manual, Fabspeed Supersport X-Pipes w/Larini Sports Cats
2004 Viper SRT-10 (bone stock, but not for long)
2003 Viper SRT-10, Paxton Supercharged
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

2001 Viper ACR, Paxton Supercharged
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

2001 Viper RT/10
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

1995 Viper RT/10
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by Drew Zee; 12-01-2019 at 11:51 PM.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Closed Thread

  Lamborghini Forum > Discussion Groups > Model Specific Discussions > Gallardo

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Lamborghini Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:
Security Question
**Required, this field is not shown to others. Enter ONLY vowel letters in the word: Lamborghini
Full Name
Your Full REAL Name
Insurance
Please select your insurance company (Optional)

Log-in



Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -6.
The time now is 10:54 AM.



Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
© AutoGuide
 

Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.3.2