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-   -   Gallardo 2004 clutch problem egear (https://www.lamborghini-talk.com/vbforum/showthread.php?t=218478)

Royalsteez 11-26-2019 06:53 PM

Gallardo 2004 clutch problem egear
 
Hello.
I’m going to explain my problem to see if you can figure out what the solution is.

I have a dealership and received a gallardo that had replaced clutch recently (actually it was the original used clutch but remade with new materials), and it had a problem that in low speeds (0kmh-10kmh) it would behave improperly like giving it just a little acceleration would make a hard acceleration and sometimes it was so agressive the engine would die. If the car was fully stopped and I pressed the accelerator, it would just do a hard “bump” like trying to start a manual car with a gear engaged and not pressing the clutch pedal (my gallardo is egear by the way).

I had the clutch removed and remade in a local shop, when I was going to leave the workshop the clutch started slipping. They redid the job again, I left the workshop everything seemed fine, but when I arrived home the reverse wouldn’t engage. I went to the shop again, and this time when I went to get it the car was running smoothly like it should. After around 100km, the clutch started slipping again. I took it to the workshop again, now when I got the car, the clutch is “hard” again, making the aggressive bumps it did before although the engine now doesn't die (although I didn't test it enough), which makes it really hard to for example park as you give a little acceleration and the car just goes like a meter making it hard to drive in low speeds.

From my description what do you think the problem might be? Is it the clutch or another part of the clutch? Do you think buying a used clutched from ebay since it's a used car and it's for sale, and putting the used clutch it would solve the problem?

Thank you

SupercarService 11-27-2019 09:56 AM

Hi

From your description it seems like the rebuilt clutch may be too strong on the springs, too much or too little friction material and the release bearing itself may be lazy. The clutch is engagement and take up is controlled by the egear ecu from engine speed and torque data and also wheel speed and transmission input shaft speed. The engagement is then regulated by the egear ecu via the clutch solonoid valves which control the amount of movement required by the clutch release bearing for a smooth take up and also smooth drag.

Have your workshop checked and adjusted the clutch point of initial slip(PIS), this determines how the clutch take up and engagement is setup, the adjustments can be harsh or soft, harsh usually ends up stalling the engine and result in jerky slow speed engagement and shifts.

It is not a good idea to replace the clutch with a used part, they are usually worn.

Best to stick with a stock clutch and release bearing if replacing, then bleed the egear hydraulics and setup the egear ecu PIS.

Hope this helps

Jason B 11-27-2019 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SupercarService (Post 1996816)
Hi

From your description it seems like the rebuilt clutch may be too strong on the springs, too much or too little friction material and the release bearing itself may be lazy. The clutch is engagement and take up is controlled by the egear ecu from engine speed and torque data and also wheel speed and transmission input shaft speed. The engagement is then regulated by the egear ecu via the clutch solonoid valves which control the amount of movement required by the clutch release bearing for a smooth take up and also smooth drag.

Have your workshop checked and adjusted the clutch point of initial slip(PIS), this determines how the clutch take up and engagement is setup, the adjustments can be harsh or soft, harsh usually ends up stalling the engine and result in jerky slow speed engagement and shifts.

It is not a good idea to replace the clutch with a used part, they are usually worn.

Best to stick with a stock clutch and release bearing if replacing, then bleed the egear hydraulics and setup the egear ecu PIS.

Hope this helps

What's your opinion on Kevlar aftermarket clutches for these cars that say they last 300% longer?

Hi Tech Exotic 11-27-2019 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Royalsteez (Post 1996686)
Hello.
I’m going to explain my problem to see if you can figure out what the solution is.

I have a dealership and received a gallardo that had replaced clutch recently (actually it was the original used clutch but remade with new materials), and it had a problem that in low speeds (0kmh-10kmh) it would behave improperly like giving it just a little acceleration would make a hard acceleration and sometimes it was so agressive the engine would die. If the car was fully stopped and I pressed the accelerator, it would just do a hard “bump” like trying to start a manual car with a gear engaged and not pressing the clutch pedal (my gallardo is egear by the way).

I had the clutch removed and remade in a local shop, when I was going to leave the workshop the clutch started slipping. They redid the job again, I left the workshop everything seemed fine, but when I arrived home the reverse wouldn’t engage. I went to the shop again, and this time when I went to get it the car was running smoothly like it should. After around 100km, the clutch started slipping again. I took it to the workshop again, now when I got the car, the clutch is “hard” again, making the aggressive bumps it did before although the engine now doesn't die (although I didn't test it enough), which makes it really hard to for example park as you give a little acceleration and the car just goes like a meter making it hard to drive in low speeds.

From my description what do you think the problem might be? Is it the clutch or another part of the clutch? Do you think buying a used clutched from ebay since it's a used car and it's for sale, and putting the used clutch it would solve the problem?

Thank you

Based on your description, it looks like you have a rebuilt clutch that was not set up or calibrated correctly in the rebuilt process. One of the symptoms that you mentioned was that it wouldn't go in reverse. That's a direct result of not setting up the clearance correctly in the rebuilt process.

PIS is your engagement bite. You can try adjusting your PIS but if it was not set up correctly, PIS won't help. You can think of an engine that's been rebuild incorrectly. You can try to tune the engine but it won't work because the rebuilt was not done correctly.

We have a few different Kevlar clutch models that last 200-350% longer than a stock clutch. You can read about our happy customers at this 45 page thread.

https://www.lamborghini-talk.com/vbf...tanding-17194/

Royalsteez 11-29-2019 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hi Tech Exotic (Post 1996904)
Based on your description, it looks like you have a rebuilt clutch that was not set up or calibrated correctly in the rebuilt process. One of the symptoms that you mentioned was that it wouldn't go in reverse. That's a direct result of not setting up the clearance correctly in the rebuilt process.

PIS is your engagement bite. You can try adjusting your PIS but if it was not set up correctly, PIS won't help. You can think of an engine that's been rebuild incorrectly. You can try to tune the engine but it won't work because the rebuilt was not done correctly.

We have a few different Kevlar clutch models that last 200-350% longer than a stock clutch. You can read about our happy customers at this 45 page thread.

https://www.lamborghini-talk.com/vbf...tanding-17194/

Like I say in my post the reverse not working was resolved after I went to the workshop again. I wen to get the car and it would engage ok, and the clutch was smooth like it should, but after around 100km it started slipping, went to the shop again, now reverse is continuing to engage ok but the clutch is "bumping" hard" again. Might it really only be springs?

Drew Zee 11-29-2019 06:27 PM

3 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason B (Post 1996854)
What's your opinion on Kevlar aftermarket clutches for these cars that say they last 300% longer?

No data to support those wild @ss claims.

Also FYI, those Kevlar clutch sets do not come with a matched, balanced ring gear. You have to transfer your old ring gear to the new one. As a result, there is an unknown level of vibration at high RPMs, which could ultimately lead to long term failure.

Stick with OEM for peace of mind.

Hi Tech Exotic 11-30-2019 06:44 PM

There is absolutely a lot of data to support our claims that our clutches last more than 300%. At the thread below, there is a data that was verified by Lamborghini San Francisco. Our customer drove 9k miles on our HT300 and only used 0.1 mm that means he has 98% left after 9k miles. His stock clutch only lasted about 8k miles. The customer was nice enough to give us a copy of the invoices from Lamborghini San Francisco that shows an E-gear snap when he installed the clutch and an E-gear snap after 9k miles where only 0.1 mm was used. It looks like he will get over 100K miles from our clutch.

https://www.lamborghini-talk.com/vbf...-ht300-186154/

Drew, you have tried to bash our clutches a few times. I didn't want to start an argument with you so I didn't say anything. Unfortunately you leave me no choice but to respond to your false information. We have sold over 2,000 clutches and we have never ever had any high rpm vibration or any vibration at any rpm range. If anything, all of our customers tell us that our clutches are actually smoother than a stock clutch. The take off is also smoother without the usual bucking that you get from a stock clutch. Please stop spreading false information.

Here are a few videos from our customers with high rpm revs.

This customer in Dubai in a 100 degree F doing 8k rpm. Zero vibration


Here is an R8 customer of ours racing at Bahrain Formula 1 race track. Many high rpm revs and no vibration. He has 80k miles on our clutch. Our clutch is holding perfectly even after 80k miles.


Drew Zee 11-30-2019 09:50 PM

3 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Hi Tech Exotic (Post 1997572)
There is absolutely a lot of data to support our claims that our clutches last more than 300%. At the thread below, there is a data that was verified by Lamborghini San Francisco. Our customer drove 9k miles on our HT300 and only used 0.1 mm that means he has 98% left after 9k miles. His stock clutch only lasted about 8k miles. The customer was nice enough to give us a copy of the invoices from Lamborghini San Francisco that shows an E-gear snap when he installed the clutch and an E-gear snap after 9k miles where only 0.1 mm was used. It looks like he will get over 100K miles from our clutch.

https://www.lamborghini-talk.com/vbf...-ht300-186154/

Drew, you have tried to bash our clutches a few times. I didn't want to start an argument with you so I didn't say anything. Unfortunately you leave me no choice but to respond to your false information. We have sold over 2,000 clutches and we have never ever had any high rpm vibration or any vibration at any rpm range. If anything, all of our customers tell us that our clutches are actually smoother than a stock clutch. The take off is also smoother without the usual bucking that you get from a stock clutch. Please stop spreading false information.

Here are a few videos from our customers with high rpm revs.

This customer in Dubai in a 100 degree F doing 8k rpm. Zero vibration


Here is an R8 customer of ours racing at Bahrain Formula 1 race track. Many high rpm revs and no vibration. He has 80k miles on our clutch. Our clutch is holding perfectly even after 80k miles.


LOL Sean - you must be confusing me with others whom have also challenged your claims. This is my very first post on this topic. No need to take this personally as I am merely seeking facts.

I am simply asking for a report that clearly outlines the analysis that was done (Kevlar vs. OEM) in order to derive that 300% life increase that you continually tout.

As a mechanical engineer with close to 40 years of experience in the aerospace field that is deeply involved in the satellite design and manufacturing business, and as an expert in control moment gyroscopes and reaction wheel assemblies that also require balancing operations prior to integration into space hardware, I love data that supports conclusions. Yep...patents and all that really neat stuff to back it up too.

Bottom line is that ring gear balancing is a very involved process. You cannot simply slap the existing gear from the old clutch to your new Kevlar clutch (as you recommend) and expect it to operate properly over time. The resulting imbalance, even at low “imperceptible” levels, can result in a destroyed drive train over time. Ask me how I know.

Let me educate you a bit. For high RPM applications (I.e., reaction wheel assemblies, control momentum gyroscopes, and the like), several critical balancing stages are needed (rough balance, fine balance and lastly, P-balance) to ensure that adequate balance is attained. At the very least, the ring gear needs to be matched and balanced to the rest of the clutch assembly via drill corrections (or similar material removing operations to achieve proper balance). Yours are not.

Do you have any data at all that will allow a potential buyer to fully expect a 300% greater clutch life over OEM? Am not really interested in the “happy customer” reports, testimonials or dealership experiences that you’ve offered up so far.

This is intended to be a positive, open discussion about the facts. It is not in any way intended to be an attack, as you have unfortunately perceived it to be. I welcome any information that you can provide to help us understand the data behind your claims.

Hi Tech Exotic 12-01-2019 12:43 AM

Drew, E-gear snap, that I showed you in the above thread, is a hard data that shows how much clutch is being used and how long our clutch will last. If you choose to ignore it, then that's your problem.

Another hard data is our customer's actual driving with different driving style. When customers tell us, how much clutch they have left, you extrapolate and it shows that they are getting more than 300%. When you have about 2,000 customers that gives you a huge amount of data. Our customers have put approximately 20 million miles on our clutches. That's a lot of hard data that shows how well our clutches work.

With all that said, you can have all the drawing, theories and data in the world but if you don't have a product that works and customers are not happy with it, then those data are worth nothing. The main object is to have a product that works and customers are happy with your product. They are happy because the clutch drives very smoothly and last a lot longer than a stock clutch. You might not care about happy customers but we do.

Drew Zee 12-01-2019 01:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hi Tech Exotic (Post 1997646)
Drew, E-gear snap, that I showed you in the above thread, is a hard data that shows how much clutch is being used and how long our clutch will last. If you choose to ignore it, then that's your problem.

Another hard data is our customer's actual driving with different driving style. When customers tell us, how much clutch they have left, you extrapolate and it shows that they are getting more than 300%. When you have about 2,000 customers that gives you a huge amount of data. Our customers have put approximately 20 million miles on our clutches. That's a lot of hard data that shows how well our clutches work.

With all that said, you can have all the drawing, theories and data in the world but if you don't have a product that works and customers are not happy with it, then those data are worth nothing. The main object is to have a product that works and customers are happy with your product. They are happy because the clutch drives very smoothly and last a lot longer than a stock clutch. You might not care about happy customers but we do.

Right on. I think customers become happy when they make informed decisions. I’m sure you would agree.

Along that line, would you please address the concerns about the lack of ring gear balancing, as I described above?

Many thanks.


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