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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Considering the situation with Roy and his experience with Lambo of Bellvue, perhaps we need to have a nice lapel pin, or badge that we can wear when we visit a dealership. I think the day has arrived where ALL the dealers need to be put on notice that WE ARE A COMMUNITY OF FRIENDS AND ENTHUSIASTS. A dealership is a business, and in most areas of business, the companies that screw their customers end up OUT OF BUSINESS. I think that every one of us should make it our solemn duty to keep the rest of our readers informed of what type of experiences they are having with different dealers. Name names, let the chips fall where they may. I am glad that the Bellvue dealer finally came to his senses, but I don't believe that the 'tiger has changed his stripes'. If the only way to get proper treatment from a Lambo dealer is to publicly humiliate them, then Audi has a much bigger problem than they realise. If we all dedicate ourlselves to 'outing' the bad behaviour and bad people in this business, very soon the offending parties will be pushed out of the Lambo sales and service business. I believe that Lambo of Scottsdale will soon no longer be a Lambo dealer, as they have displayed the most appalling treatment towards their customers. As an aside, the owner just fired his loyal and competent service manager because she told him she was pregnant and would need some time off in few months time. Nice... I am sick of Lamborghini not insisting that their dealers behave in an ethical manner. I am sick of being lied to, insulted, cheated and driven to utter frustration. I love Lamborghini, I hate the local dealer. If ANY of you feel you wish to buy a car from Lambo of Scottsdale, PM me your phone number and I will call you and relate the whole sordid story. If we all wore a Lambo-Talk badge whenever we visited a dealer, pretty soon they would get the message...'DON'T MESS WITH US'...! Together, we can drive the scum out of this business...and we owe it to each other to do so. Rascasse.
 

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I remember the scottsdale story very well! In fact I saved it :) after taking it down from public view.

I must say I'm very proud that Lamborghini-Talk has become a conduit for Owners and Enthusiast and Future Buyers of such large and powerful proportions to actually be able to effect the practices and habits of some sales organizations. I actually had no idea that we were being read so far up the food chain, let alone had the potential to create effects.

This is something new that I have never given any thought to because I have a completely apolitical stance. And have always simply focused on exchanging info and sharing our passions. Actually myself and our Mods have worked hard to stay out of the eye of any political storms and keep the quality and integrity of the board at the highest social and ethical level so that we could all just deal with each other with respect and courtesy and just have fun.

I don't know what to think about this or where or how to take these new requests for a public display of solidarity. My gut feeling tells me that far fewer workers at dealers or other organizations know about or care about L-Talk than we think, and the ones that do will simply ignore us or discount any effect that we may have. Look at the BBB for example, how many people really call them "before" stepping in it big time ???? Hell, I don't even call the BBB myself before hiring a Contractor or making some other major purchase decision.

I guess I'm undecided and nuetral on this and would like to hear alot more feedback from the Community.
 

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A good start would be to send an email to all the Lambo dealerships both new sellers and used sellers. Maybe something like this:
To whom it may concern,
Lamborghini-talk a worlwide online community of current and future Lamborghini owners have identified a problematic trend in the Lamborghini car business. Many members, be it long time owners, new owners, or potential owners have expressed concern over less than acceptable treatment received from dealers. The purpose of this email is to inform you that the members of lamborghini-talk will be actively exchanging their views on the quality of service they receive when purchasing and servicing both new and used vehicles. Our goal is to make the effort involved in acquiring, owning, and servicing Lamborghini vehicles a positive experience. Please visit us at lamborghini-talk.com and consider becoming a member of our worldwide Lamborghini community.
 

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craftsman said:
A good start would be to send an email to all the Lambo dealerships both new sellers and used sellers. Maybe something like this:
To whom it may concern,
Lamborghini-talk a worlwide online community of current and future Lamborghini owners have identified a problematic trend in the Lamborghini car business. Many members, be it long time owners, new owners, or potential owners have expressed concern over less than acceptable treatment received from dealers. The purpose of this email is to inform you that the members of lamborghini-talk will be actively exchanging their views on the quality of service they receive when purchasing and servicing both new and used vehicles. Our goal is to make the effort involved in acquiring, owning, and servicing Lamborghini vehicles a positive experience. Please visit us at lamborghini-talk.com and consider becoming a member of our worldwide Lamborghini community.

I think that is a great idea. I think it is worded very well also. I think we should give it a shot, we have nothing to lose.
 

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At The Dealer Leavl.

It Dose Make A Differnce. I Work At Oc. Lamborghini. I Have For The
Last Six + Years. I Work In Service And I Read The Post Almost Every
Day. I Like To Help With Information , Keep Tabs On Problems With Cars & What The Customers Think Of Them. At My Dealer We Read & Care What Is Being Said. We Try Are Best To Keep It All Good & Everyone Happy.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Craftsman. Great reply. I like your suggestion. To the OC dealer, I appreciate your reply also. Over time, the dealers that respond to the needs of the customer at ALL stages of the ownership experience will be the ones to survive. Rascasse
 

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Well, just some other input, I'm not sure you could get everybody to agree for instance that this or that Dealer is unanimously good or bad, Different people are going to have different opinions. The universally bad dealers are going to go away anyway, so corralling emotions or experiences towards Dealers would be hit and miss in my opinion. Roys experience will serve notice to everyone that read it, but the next guy that goes in there without knowledge might be treated like a King. You just don't know. Dealers must be aware of the new found power buyers have due to the internet.

Perhaps a 1-5 star "Rate this Dealer" and write a review section would be helpful.
 

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raymondo said:
Perhaps a 1-5 star "Rate this Dealer" and write a review section would be helpful.
Now that I think is a great idea.

How about some rules? Like:

  • Stating your full name and affiliation to said dealer (limit shills).
  • Direct experiences only (no "my friend said" type of stories) with approx dates.

-mick
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
...I agree. Let's have a new section on the website: "Rate the Dealer". No anonymous posts, name supplied only, with relevant details, good or bad.
 

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How about some rules? Like:

Ok, I'm listening to this feedback and the Board Mods also think this can work.


WE DEFINATELY NEED SOME RULES!!!!

My biggest concern is Shills and Witch Hunts or any other type of Inappropriate behavior that would invalidate the information. Many of us have known each other for a very long time via LTalk and our posts go without question, additionally even getting an Owner Tag is completely on the Honor System and has worked very well because of the integrety of the type of members we attract. However this new situation is very ripe for abuse by the less scupulous.

We will definately need mechanisms in place to keep this from being manipulated or abused rendering the info useless. I think the Letter is a Great way to start with some minor massaging to insure that it is in no way threatening or even percieved to be threatening. I hope everyone realizes that not every Dealer is going to find this benificial or a blessing!! It wouldn't surprise me if this actually causes LTalk to make some enemies, not that it will be the first time, but we have worked hard to keep ourselves out of the political infighting that goes on.

Well, moving along....let's start developing a plan and a set of rules that can help us manage this new situation fairly!!!

All ideas accepted!!

Should the Dealers and Organizations be listed in Alphabetical order or Oldest to Newest? And I think we should have at least two Catagories, Official Dealers and Non-Official/Independent.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Itadmin. I agree with your thoughts on this. Although there is the possibility of abuse, I think that most of us are honourable people, and will act accordingly. I think that in order to post in the 'new' section, perhaps one would need to be a member for a specific time...say 6 months. That would prevent new joiners doing so just to 'flame' a rival dealership. Whether or not we make 'enemies' should be of no concern. If a dealer is not willing to act in a manner that courts our praise, then too bad for them if they find their reputations under threat. I believe this type of forum is a real necessity, because Lamborghini is rapidly expanding thier dealer network, and is doing so without properly vetting the prospective dealers (as an example, the dealer here in Scottsdale was well known to be dishonest before Lambo granted them the franchise). The brand is too valuable, the cars too expensive to allow cheap and slimy hucksters to take it over and tarnish it's name. If we become a force of accountability, we will influence how these dealers behave. I also think we should forward any negative, and verifiable stories to Lamborghini NA, so that they are aware of what is going on with their dealers. Well, thats my 2 cents worth.....comments ?
 

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I must say I'm very proud that Lamborghini-Talk has become a conduit for Owners and Enthusiast and Future Buyers of such large and powerful proportions to actually be able to effect the practices and habits of some sales organizations. I actually had no idea that we were being read so far up the food chain, let alone had the potential to create effects.


I don't know what to think about this or where or how to take these new requests for a public display of solidarity. My gut feeling tells me that far fewer workers at dealers or other organizations know about or care about L-Talk than we think, and the ones that do will simply ignore us or discount any effect that we may have.


I check the forum every day, several times and find it to be very useful in feeling out the market and our customers. I do not use it to advertise my company or use it as a marketing tool. I just use it as a way to stay up with my customers feelings and because I am a true nut. If more dealers hired "nuts" instead of employees then everyone who walked thru the door would get the same treatment. "of course you can come in and look!" just to see the looks of amazement on their faces and to share the experience-buyer or not. I have taken many a teenager into our "showroom" (It is actually more like a warehouse-we are not a storefront and most people dont even know we exist in our hometown) just to share. The forum is truly a place for those who love and care to come and enjoy company. Many Thanx to the administrators, and those in the market who care, are reading and watching.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Blooney. If you really do care about the customers, and want to reach them, then becoming a formal advertiser is always welcome, and we will try and return that by promoting and using your services. I agree that at this point in time, many dealers/service personnel will probably think 'who cares' about L-T and it's members. However, over time, it will become apparant that there is a movement taking shape, and that those who willfully abuse (read: Lambo of Scottsdale) the buying public will find themselves slowly but surely marginalised. I am looking to replace my Murcielago with a newer model....and Lambo of Scottsdale has assured themselves of not seeing a penny in profit from me ever again. I have convinced 3 other purchasers to buy their cars elswhere also. That's 4 cars they haven't sold. I don't know too many dealers who can afford that sort of sentiment to develop too strongly. We owe it to each other to enforce fair trading standards across the dealership network. Many people are underestimating the power of the internet and it's potential to advise and persuade. Eventually we can hold dealers to account. The dealers that take the time to understand our concerns, and address them fairly will see thier business reflect the respect they earn. The other side of the equation also holds true. Time is not on the side of crooks and cheats....
 

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We are entering really delicate territory here.

I think this rating idea is fantastic if implemented properly. Now it is up to all of us to decide what proper implementation is, but I'm here to just make a couple of suggestions and to sound off on a couple of concerns.

The first concern I would have is that although it is easy to say that making enemies is ok because of the weight the community carries, I would have to disagree. As popular as this site is, we can ill afford, as a community, to have enemies. We would become the very thing we are trying to erradicate. I'm sure some feel that the "stealer"ships out there don't give a rat's ass about making enemies, which leads to some inexcusable behavior.

Somebody had also mentioned that there would be a minimum amount of time that the member has to be a member in order to post in this soon to be developed section. I disagree on this point as well. A lot of times people who are usually disinclined to paricipate in public forums, seek out forums such as this for support when they have run into a problem. It would not be optimal if a person has very legitimate claims and found this site to substantiate them, only to have a moderator delete the post because of the amount of time the member has been a member.

In order for such an ambitious endeavor to succeed I feel there should be four major things that should be adhered to.

First, the posts should be very well structured and objective. If we start to throw in subjective opinions we run the risk of inflamatory remarks that don't have a place in the thread. State your facts and facts alone. Provide documentation, if any, and present your case in a very formal way. Now this may seem like more work than one would be willing to go through, but if it means resolution and helping fellow members, its not that bad. Hey, who said helping others would be easy?! ;) Hey, if anything, this portion of the forum could turn into a form of mediation between parties, not contractually binding, mind you, but helpful to all parties nontheless.

Next, I would think that it is an absolute necessity for the moderator in charge of the section to write a formal and unbiased letter to the dealership in question to allow them an opportunity to either defend themselves, apologize, or justify their actions. I'm sure we aren't all always right. This would insure a no harm/no foul type of atmosphere where none of us feel that we are attacking each other. Keep in mind that some dealers out there are also members. Sometimes it may not even be complaints, but concerns regarding a dealership.

Thirdly, this section would have to be supported by all in the community. This means very heavy moderation to keep things fair, and spreading the word, when it comes to us. The more people we have who buy from dealers, the more support we can garner to make it an invaluable space in the web for future buyers. Also, this added exposure is going to leave us all susceptible to unwanted traffic. So the community will really have to hold together. At the end of the day, we are all here to help out Lamborghini in their ambitious endeavors and to revel in our favorite marque. If we play our cards right, this can actually be a very useful tool for reputable dealers! Nothing would be a stronger selling point than to point a potential buyer to the site where there have been a number of very satisfied customers.

Finally, I think there should be categories in the rating system, or a definite rating system with justifications. Kind of like Zagat's is for restaurants. If you are not familiar with Zagat's (www.zagats.com) they divide a restaurant into 4 categories and a descriptive paragraph or two. They have Food, Decor, Service, Cost. Obviously for our application it would be very different. Nevertheless, complaints and praise can be tallied up in similar fashion. Also, we would want to avoid ratings like: 10! They were awesome! Or, 1! They were awful, never use them, they are thieves! Just not very helpful.

I'd love to hear other ideas. I think this is going to be a good addition to an already wonderful site.
 

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Really ,really good constructive stuff here folks. I'd like to recap here a little bit and add my 2 cents.

Racasse: Very sad situation in Scottsdale. I'm thinking any policing of dealers in person be conducted without a "badge". Everyone should be treated fairly and the same by a dealer regardless of age, appearance, affilliation, etc.. (These people should be taken out back for firing a pregnant woman.)

Craftsman: If we do use an email to establish this I think it would have to come from the administrators, but it would be nice to develop a draft here based on everyones input and then put the draft up on the site for all the members to vote on just to make sure it's fairly worded. I'll be glad to work on this, feel free to post suggestions or pm me. Final decision goes to the administrators though cause it's their name on it.

Jeffoc and Racasse: Dealers who have nothing to hide or fear will not be the least offended by this informational email cause they know it doesn't apply to them. The bad apples on the other hand will be put on notice that we will be taking them to task.

Raymondo and Gday: I like the idea of a dealer specific section. If we started like this and then when a dealer had enough qualified high ratings they became a recommended dealer. This might encourage dealers to try for the coveted recommended status.

Itadmin: The honor system you've worked out on ltalk has been what encourages me to be a member here. It's the fairest and works the best and most of all it's self policing. I vote for alphabetical order, no one can fault it.

Racasse: At all times Lamborghini NA should be in the loop. This ultimately does nothing but improve the company. Shills and flamers come with the territory though and limiting posts doesn't seem fair. I for one would like to hear from an uninitiated newcomer to the brand who saw a showroom, walked in and was treated well. JRV and the mods have a pretty good nose for posts where there's something between the lines. This is going to be the hardest part.

Stickanddice: You sum it up well. We should proceed without regard to whether or not this person or that organization is offended. Anger in ratings will serve no constructive purpose. If the offended are not allowed to use anger it should help diffuse the situation.

So here we are(not necessarily in order)
Set up a dealer listing on the site
Draft an unoffensive email (or snail mail) to be sent to all dealers and Lamborghini NA
Rate dealers based on comments(possibly recommend dealers above a certain score)
 

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Dealers should be listed alphabetically BY REGION, ie North West, West Coast, Mid-West, South West, South East, North East, and then an Other (for places in Canada as some of out NW members go there for service etc.)

A heads-up to the dealers in question should be both e-mailed and mailed return reciept requested (if the site can afford such an expenditure), this way a really loser dealer will have no chance if they make a desperate attempt at a law-suit against the community in an attempt to save their hides.

Posts in this forum should be accompanied by a vote of "Overall Impression: Positive/Negative"

There should then be a branch-off of this section that has the rating system where the impression/rating of the dealers is garnered by the amount of posts positive/negative (IN THE OTHER PORTRION OF THE FORUM!), perhaps with a "most-recent blurb" attached to it. This section is NOT POSTABLE and is only open to moderation by the Mods themselves. That way ONLY THE MODS CAN AFFECT THE VOTE TALLIES! either that or is somehow linked to the other forum by dealer name

so if a particular dealer, with an outstanding reputation has, say, 10 Positive posts and 1 Negative one, it would be rated well (perhaps a "Lamborghini-Talk Recommended Dealer") and then have a blurb that may say something like "Flawless transaction" or whatever is in a favorable post.



This system affords a double-safety against shills etc.

In addition there should be 50 word MINIMUM post length for experiences, to further cut down on shills or vote-bots or what have you.

Posts should also have to remain as sangfrois and stoic as possible.


EDIT:

on the note of Lamborghini NA, obviously they should be kept in the loop and should be informed at what we are about to begin, and when it actually starts (ie the forums are made and we have our first few reviews)

THEN they should only be notified in two circumstances

A. a particular dealer has an appreciable number of Negative votes, and is apparently a dealership of poor quality and low morals

B. a dealer has an exceptional rating with the overwhelming majority of experiences related as positive. (would probably fall under the category of "Lamborghini-Talk Recommended Dealership")

In this manner Lambo NA will know both dealerships that need to be checked in on, and possibly stripped of their right to sell the marque if poor behavior continues, as well as those dealerships which are outstanding and deserve commendations.

EDIT 2:

Obviously, only the first post of a particular thread (the post in which one relates the experience with a particular dealer) about one's experience would carry the Overall Impression vote, which, i suppose, may count as a tripple-safe system.
 

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I'm going to start working the e-mail as well as the letter, and have a decent start already, but i dont know if it should be posted here, or in another thread.

also both the e-mails and the letters themselves should be worded identically.

EDIT:

oh yeah, I also have some ideas for the e-mails to Lambo NA, here or another thread?
 

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Hey guys before everybody gets to excited about this, you might want to consider the effect of putting Lambo Dealers on the spot. This site would be a target to Audi/Lamborghini, and not cast in a favorable light. Not what we want. There's also allot of work that will be required to police a system like this, and little in return. Lots of ramifications behind the scenes. In any case it's JR's decision.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Raymondo. I appreciate your concerns. I must however point out though that the only dealers that would 'target' us would be those that are deserving of bad publicity. Also, how exactly would they target us? Any publicity at all would allow their potential customers the opportunity to view our website and make up their own minds as to the veracity of the information supplied. Frankly, as Winston Churchill would have said, " to make an enemy of evil is virtuous" ...or words to that effect...! I am a direct victim of the type of dealer that ruins the passion and love for these wonderful cars. It cost me almost $40K, much heartache, and the inability to understand how Lamborghini NA could allow such slime to own and operate a dealership that represented their product. I don't wish anyone to go through the experience that I did. It is imperative that these types of dealers are forced out of business. It is essential that Lamborghini NA/Italy be made to understand that there WILL be accountability towards the buying public, and serious consequences if they fail to police their dealers. A critical oversight from our membership will slowly force them to take action that is sadly overdue. Rascasse
 

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To avoid legal problems maybe there should be a few guidlines posted on the dealer forum. If any of you are lawyers please chime in.
 
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