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Discussion Starter #1
Hello.
I’m going to explain my problem to see if you can figure out what the solution is.

I have a dealership and received a gallardo that had replaced clutch recently (actually it was the original used clutch but remade with new materials), and it had a problem that in low speeds (0kmh-10kmh) it would behave improperly like giving it just a little acceleration would make a hard acceleration and sometimes it was so agressive the engine would die. If the car was fully stopped and I pressed the accelerator, it would just do a hard “bump” like trying to start a manual car with a gear engaged and not pressing the clutch pedal (my gallardo is egear by the way).

I had the clutch removed and remade in a local shop, when I was going to leave the workshop the clutch started slipping. They redid the job again, I left the workshop everything seemed fine, but when I arrived home the reverse wouldn’t engage. I went to the shop again, and this time when I went to get it the car was running smoothly like it should. After around 100km, the clutch started slipping again. I took it to the workshop again, now when I got the car, the clutch is “hard” again, making the aggressive bumps it did before although the engine now doesn't die (although I didn't test it enough), which makes it really hard to for example park as you give a little acceleration and the car just goes like a meter making it hard to drive in low speeds.

From my description what do you think the problem might be? Is it the clutch or another part of the clutch? Do you think buying a used clutched from ebay since it's a used car and it's for sale, and putting the used clutch it would solve the problem?

Thank you
 

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Hi

From your description it seems like the rebuilt clutch may be too strong on the springs, too much or too little friction material and the release bearing itself may be lazy. The clutch is engagement and take up is controlled by the egear ecu from engine speed and torque data and also wheel speed and transmission input shaft speed. The engagement is then regulated by the egear ecu via the clutch solonoid valves which control the amount of movement required by the clutch release bearing for a smooth take up and also smooth drag.

Have your workshop checked and adjusted the clutch point of initial slip(PIS), this determines how the clutch take up and engagement is setup, the adjustments can be harsh or soft, harsh usually ends up stalling the engine and result in jerky slow speed engagement and shifts.

It is not a good idea to replace the clutch with a used part, they are usually worn.

Best to stick with a stock clutch and release bearing if replacing, then bleed the egear hydraulics and setup the egear ecu PIS.

Hope this helps
 

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Hi

From your description it seems like the rebuilt clutch may be too strong on the springs, too much or too little friction material and the release bearing itself may be lazy. The clutch is engagement and take up is controlled by the egear ecu from engine speed and torque data and also wheel speed and transmission input shaft speed. The engagement is then regulated by the egear ecu via the clutch solonoid valves which control the amount of movement required by the clutch release bearing for a smooth take up and also smooth drag.

Have your workshop checked and adjusted the clutch point of initial slip(PIS), this determines how the clutch take up and engagement is setup, the adjustments can be harsh or soft, harsh usually ends up stalling the engine and result in jerky slow speed engagement and shifts.

It is not a good idea to replace the clutch with a used part, they are usually worn.

Best to stick with a stock clutch and release bearing if replacing, then bleed the egear hydraulics and setup the egear ecu PIS.

Hope this helps
What's your opinion on Kevlar aftermarket clutches for these cars that say they last 300% longer?
 

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Hello.
I’m going to explain my problem to see if you can figure out what the solution is.

I have a dealership and received a gallardo that had replaced clutch recently (actually it was the original used clutch but remade with new materials), and it had a problem that in low speeds (0kmh-10kmh) it would behave improperly like giving it just a little acceleration would make a hard acceleration and sometimes it was so agressive the engine would die. If the car was fully stopped and I pressed the accelerator, it would just do a hard “bump” like trying to start a manual car with a gear engaged and not pressing the clutch pedal (my gallardo is egear by the way).

I had the clutch removed and remade in a local shop, when I was going to leave the workshop the clutch started slipping. They redid the job again, I left the workshop everything seemed fine, but when I arrived home the reverse wouldn’t engage. I went to the shop again, and this time when I went to get it the car was running smoothly like it should. After around 100km, the clutch started slipping again. I took it to the workshop again, now when I got the car, the clutch is “hard” again, making the aggressive bumps it did before although the engine now doesn't die (although I didn't test it enough), which makes it really hard to for example park as you give a little acceleration and the car just goes like a meter making it hard to drive in low speeds.

From my description what do you think the problem might be? Is it the clutch or another part of the clutch? Do you think buying a used clutched from ebay since it's a used car and it's for sale, and putting the used clutch it would solve the problem?

Thank you
Based on your description, it looks like you have a rebuilt clutch that was not set up or calibrated correctly in the rebuilt process. One of the symptoms that you mentioned was that it wouldn't go in reverse. That's a direct result of not setting up the clearance correctly in the rebuilt process.

PIS is your engagement bite. You can try adjusting your PIS but if it was not set up correctly, PIS won't help. You can think of an engine that's been rebuild incorrectly. You can try to tune the engine but it won't work because the rebuilt was not done correctly.

We have a few different Kevlar clutch models that last 200-350% longer than a stock clutch. You can read about our happy customers at this 45 page thread.

https://www.lamborghini-talk.com/vbforum/f141/diy-lamborghini-gallardo-clutch-kevlar-kit-hi-tech-exotic-outstanding-17194/
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Based on your description, it looks like you have a rebuilt clutch that was not set up or calibrated correctly in the rebuilt process. One of the symptoms that you mentioned was that it wouldn't go in reverse. That's a direct result of not setting up the clearance correctly in the rebuilt process.

PIS is your engagement bite. You can try adjusting your PIS but if it was not set up correctly, PIS won't help. You can think of an engine that's been rebuild incorrectly. You can try to tune the engine but it won't work because the rebuilt was not done correctly.

We have a few different Kevlar clutch models that last 200-350% longer than a stock clutch. You can read about our happy customers at this 45 page thread.

https://www.lamborghini-talk.com/vbforum/f141/diy-lamborghini-gallardo-clutch-kevlar-kit-hi-tech-exotic-outstanding-17194/
Like I say in my post the reverse not working was resolved after I went to the workshop again. I wen to get the car and it would engage ok, and the clutch was smooth like it should, but after around 100km it started slipping, went to the shop again, now reverse is continuing to engage ok but the clutch is "bumping" hard" again. Might it really only be springs?
 

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What's your opinion on Kevlar aftermarket clutches for these cars that say they last 300% longer?
No data to support those wild @ss claims.

Also FYI, those Kevlar clutch sets do not come with a matched, balanced ring gear. You have to transfer your old ring gear to the new one. As a result, there is an unknown level of vibration at high RPMs, which could ultimately lead to long term failure.

Stick with OEM for peace of mind.
 

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There is absolutely a lot of data to support our claims that our clutches last more than 300%. At the thread below, there is a data that was verified by Lamborghini San Francisco. Our customer drove 9k miles on our HT300 and only used 0.1 mm that means he has 98% left after 9k miles. His stock clutch only lasted about 8k miles. The customer was nice enough to give us a copy of the invoices from Lamborghini San Francisco that shows an E-gear snap when he installed the clutch and an E-gear snap after 9k miles where only 0.1 mm was used. It looks like he will get over 100K miles from our clutch.
 

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I am simply asking for a report that clearly outlines the analysis that was done (Kevlar vs. OEM) in order to derive that 300% life increase that you continually tout.

As a mechanical engineer with close to 40 years of experience in the aerospace field that is deeply involved in the satellite design and manufacturing business, and as an expert in control moment gyroscopes and reaction wheel assemblies that also require balancing operations prior to integration into space hardware, I love data that supports conclusions. Yep...patents and all that really neat stuff to back it up too.

Bottom line is that ring gear balancing is a very involved process. You cannot simply slap the existing gear from the old clutch to your new Kevlar clutch (as you recommend) and expect it to operate properly over time. The resulting imbalance, even at low “imperceptible” levels, can result in a destroyed drive train over time. Ask me how I know.

Let me educate you a bit. For high RPM applications (I.e., reaction wheel assemblies, control momentum gyroscopes, and the like), several critical balancing stages are needed (rough balance, fine balance and lastly, P-balance) to ensure that adequate balance is attained. At the very least, the ring gear needs to be matched and balanced to the rest of the clutch assembly via drill corrections (or similar material removing operations to achieve proper balance). Yours are not.

Do you have any data at all that will allow a potential buyer to fully expect a 300% greater clutch life over OEM? Am not really interested in the “happy customer” reports, testimonials or dealership experiences that you’ve offered up so far.

This is intended to be a positive, open discussion about the facts. It is not in any way intended to be an attack, as you have unfortunately perceived it to be. I welcome any information that you can provide to help us understand the data behind your claims.[/QUOTE]
 

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Drew, E-gear snap, that I showed you in the above thread, is a hard data that shows how much clutch is being used and how long our clutch will last.

Another hard data is our customer's actual driving with different driving style. When customers tell us, how much clutch they have left, you extrapolate and it shows that they are getting more than 300%. When you have about 2,000 customers that gives you a huge amount of data. Our customers have put approximately 20 million miles on our clutches. That's a lot of hard data that shows how well our clutches work.
 

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Along that line, would you please address the concerns about the lack of ring gear balancing, as I described above?

Many thanks.
 

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We balance our clutches to 10k rpm. The way it's balanced, it has enough tolerance that you can use a new ring gear or your own ring gear. Again that's because the way we set up and balance our clutches. If this clutch was installed in an engine that revved up to 18-20k rpm like previous F1 engines, then the ring gear would be balanced but it's not necessary in a Gallardo engine(the way we set it up). Even Valeo, manufacturer of Lamborghini and R8 clutches, don't require you to get a new ring gear for an R8 and also LP560. If you buy a pressure plate separately from Valeo, the pressure plate does not come with a ring gear. A lot of people use their old ring gear.

We modify Valeo pressure plate for our HT200 and HT300 but HT350 starts with our own billet aluminum pressure plate. When we get a pressure plate from Valeo, sometimes they have a batch that comes with a ring gear and sometimes it doesn't. It makes no difference. That's why we have never had any vibration at high rpm with our clutches. As I showed you before, we have a customer with 80k miles and he takes it racing a lot and there is no vibration. As I said before, we have sold over 2,000 clutches and not even one with any kind of vibrations.
 

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As a site sponsor, you should be prepared for, and constructively respond to, technical questions regarding the products that you are offering.

By the way, the mechanic that you refer to is not your mechanic. He is on this forum and operates independently, and is no way associated with your business. I actually met him through someone else and not you. He spent a week at my house to work through the e-gear issues, and is one of the best Lamborghini mechanics that I have ever met. For anyone whom is interested in his contact information, please PM me.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
This is a great debate but I came here asking for some help on what it might be, I'm not here to buy a new clutch because mine was just remade and I already paid for it, I'm not going to just buy a new expensive kevlar one to put it in place and maybe have the same problem I'm having because the problem might not be the clutch itself, as you have said yourself not going in reverse seems to be a clutch problem, but I said that was already solved and the car now goes in reverse properly, it just bumps hard on acceleration.
I mentioned I'm a used car dealer, I'm not going to invest in a brand new kevlar clutch because that makes no sense, what I could do if it really is a clutch problem is buy a used original clutch and put in place, used car used clutch, and at least it's original, and of course a much cheaper solution.
 

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I have no horse in the race, but I’ll say that regardless of your feelings on the Kevlar clutch, the issue is that your clutch has not been rebuilt properly. The eGear system is very sensitive and has a bunch of different settings that can be played around with on top of how sensitive tolerances are.

You decided to try to save a grand on a clutch job and now have realized that a Lamborghini with a computerized clutch has higher tolerances than a Subaru. Sorry dude it blows, because you’re now underwater on the car. You will need to replace the clutch, having paid for a bad rebuilt one doesn’t change that.

Next time, replace the clutch with an OEM part at a solid exotic shop or, better yet, at a dealer. You should have taken it to the dealer and gotten a snap done on the car prior to buying it— these cars are nightmares if not properly maintained. Especially the pre-LP cars that have no real Audi blood.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
I know the first lamborghinis are pain, I've had 3 of these first ones and it's one problem after the other... do you thinking buying an original used clutch and putting it in place will solve everything?
 

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EGear clutches get replaced when the car no longer goes into gear. Nobody pays to do the clutch job until they need to, so any used clutch you find will not fix the issue as it is already worn down to a low enough point to where the car doesn’t drive properly.
 

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I run a independent lambo specialist workshop in london also a highly trained engineer. I've replaced poorly manufactured kevlar/upgrade clutches and all because they are unreliable, unpredictable, vibrations are bad in some cases(mainly on murcies) and I have always replaced with genuine balanced assemblies from Lamborghini. The clutch kits come with a certification of testing and calibration. In all clutch jobs I always also replace the release bearing, sleeve if worn and also flush out the egear system prior to final bleeding and purging, so far no problems at all even with twin turbo gallardos iv' built using the superleggera clutch kits, no issues.

I have installed 2 kevlar clutches in my manual murcie when i owned it and both times the clutch was unreliable, unpredictable and vibrations were the biggest problem, in the end the third clutch was OEM stock and all the problems went away. Removing engine and transmisison is no joke when its down to re manufactured parts, There is a reason why lamborghini only sell a fully balanced assembly. Just replaced an Aventador clutch, no issues!

In my opinion the clutch wear is dependent on how the car is driven, clutch temperature, take off technique and slow speed maneuvering such as parking etc. Kevlar clutches need a special technique to wear in and bed in, they will burn out easy if the bedding in procedure is not followed, this doesnt always result in slipping clutch, the friction materials can get cooked and not grip properly and kvelar is more sensitive than stock clutch for bedding in.

Agree with Hi Tech on ring gear balancing not being a main factor, the ring gear is a finely machined part and very accurate, balancing and vibrations are not a concern from the ring gear itself. The OEM clutch kits come balanced with a mark/line to make the flywheel position to the cover plate position match and the 2 parts are perfectly balanced if installed correctly. Again a bedding in procedure is to be followed and adjusments to PIS need to be made to get the enagement smooth and jerk free. PIS adjustments are essential on both preLP and Lp cars including murcie.

Egear cars are sensitive to clutch take up engagement. Some upgrade clutches have very strong springs and make the final take up harsh or jerky especially at slow speeds and stop start traffic situations , the E gear system is very good and reliable if its serviced and setup correctly but at the same time its operated by PWM signals
which control the clutch control solenoids. This is also a factor with stronger springed clutches where the egear cannot always adapt the engagement. The egear system relies on friction/slip ratio to determine clutch engagement moments between engine revolutions, stall threshold rpm and also transmission rpm signals, all these rpm signals let the egear know when and how to adapt engine rpm and when release the clutch, so if the friction material and spring pressure changes so does the engagement factor!

It seems there is either a clutch issue or release bearing issue, or both with the car in question. Only way to find out is to remove and start again and replace with known good parts, but this time check out all the components involved! highly recommend oem part and a proper setup before and after bedding in and again after 500 miles
 

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I run a independent lambo specialist workshop in london also a highly trained engineer. I've replaced poorly manufactured kevlar/upgrade clutches and all because they are unreliable, unpredictable, vibrations are bad in some cases(mainly on murcies) and I have always replaced with genuine balanced assemblies from Lamborghini. The clutch kits come with a certification of testing and calibration. In all clutch jobs I always also replace the release bearing, sleeve if worn and also flush out the egear system prior to final bleeding and purging, so far no problems at all even with twin turbo gallardos iv' built using the superleggera clutch kits, no issues.

I have installed 2 kevlar clutches in my manual murcie when i owned it and both times the clutch was unreliable, unpredictable and vibrations were the biggest problem, in the end the third clutch was OEM stock and all the problems went away. Removing engine and transmisison is no joke when its down to re manufactured parts, There is a reason why lamborghini only sell a fully balanced assembly. Just replaced an Aventador clutch, no issues!

In my opinion the clutch wear is dependent on how the car is driven, clutch temperature, take off technique and slow speed maneuvering such as parking etc. Kevlar clutches need a special technique to wear in and bed in, they will burn out easy if the bedding in procedure is not followed, this doesnt always result in slipping clutch, the friction materials can get cooked and not grip properly and kvelar is more sensitive than stock clutch for bedding in.

Agree with Hi Tech on ring gear balancing not being a main factor, the ring gear is a finely machined part and very accurate, balancing and vibrations are not a concern from the ring gear itself. The OEM clutch kits come balanced with a mark/line to make the flywheel position to the cover plate position match and the 2 parts are perfectly balanced if installed correctly. Again a bedding in procedure is to be followed and adjusments to PIS need to be made to get the enagement smooth and jerk free. PIS adjustments are essential on both preLP and Lp cars including murcie.

Egear cars are sensitive to clutch take up engagement. Some upgrade clutches have very strong springs and make the final take up harsh or jerky especially at slow speeds and stop start traffic situations , the E gear system is very good and reliable if its serviced and setup correctly but at the same time its operated by PWM signals
which control the clutch control solenoids. This is also a factor with stronger springed clutches where the egear cannot always adapt the engagement. The egear system relies on friction/slip ratio to determine clutch engagement moments between engine revolutions, stall threshold rpm and also transmission rpm signals, all these rpm signals let the egear know when and how to adapt engine rpm and when release the clutch, so if the friction material and spring pressure changes so does the engagement factor!

It seems there is either a clutch issue or release bearing issue, or both with the car in question. Only way to find out is to remove and start again and replace with known good parts, but this time check out all the components involved! highly recommend oem part and a proper setup before and after bedding in and again after 500 miles
I agree you with you 100%. A poorly manufactured Kevlar clutch is not worth the money. If a Kevlar clutch is not set up correctly, it will have harsh take off with a lot of vibration/bucking and some of them will not last even 1,000 miles. That's why I always say that all Kevlar clutches are not the same. We don't use cheap and low quality Kevlar. I know what you mean about a Kevlar clutch in a Murci. If it's not set up right and if you don't use high quality Kevlar, you will have shifting problem and harsh take off. Here is a customer of ours who bought a poorly manufactured Kevlar clutch for his Murci. He had harsh take off and shifting problem. He contacted us and replaced it with our Kevlar clutch. Our Kevlar clutch was smooth in take off and no more vibration. The shifting was smooth again and no issues with reverse. No more harsh take off.

Please read post #173 by howard77

https://www.lamborghini-talk.com/vbforum/f141/diy-lamborghini-gallardo-clutch-kevlar-kit-hi-tech-exotic-outstanding-17194/index5.html#post185253

Royalsteez, your manufactured clutch was not set up correctly and that's why you had reverse problem before and 1st gear slipping now. When you had a reverse problem, they probably adjusted PIS and loosened it up so it would go in reverse but that will slip the clutch more. That's why your clutch is slipping in 1st gear.

We have a Kevlar clutch that's priced very close to a stock clutch. I agree with A.M. You should not buy a used clutch because you don't know how much meat is on the clutch and you're back to square one. Try to find a new OEM clutch that someone has bought but for some reason they don't need it anymore. I have had customers who either sold their Lambo or crashed their Lambo and bought a clutch ahead of time so they don't need it anymore. If I come across one, I will let you know.
 

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Have you done a Soft Reset of your clutch?
Your best bet would be to do this for now, and then figure your next moves.

I agree with the guys with OEM.
If cost is an option, dont forget to shop around.
Same part numbers, different dealers saved me over $1000.
YES over $1000... IN the end I paid $3k USD for the clutch and ALL the other components.

Soft reset for egears is the following:

Hold both handles for about 20 seconds
E-gear light will come on, your gear lights will say: R N A1
Release handles
Pull both handles as if you were regularily shifting back to neutral
Gear lights will return to R N
Drive off

Keep us updated.
 

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I have no horse in this race, but did your mechanic really try to mislead you on an LP clutch versus a Pre-LP clutch? If so, I would have stayed away and found another place to work on the car.

If the events surrounding the clutch replacement and f1 pump burn outs are correct, any info you gleaned from the situation regarding your clutch is biased because the mechanic was acting unethically.
 
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