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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
It seems that Automobili Lamborghini just can't help themselves. I just took delivery of a new LP 560-4, and don't get me wrong, I love it. Sales are at a virtual standstill out there, but , in spite of this, by my calculation, the FACTORY pocketed at least $30,000 in extraordinary gain, as the Euro dropped over 20% against the US Dollar (try to imagine how fast they would have raised prices, if it had gone the other way). I had agreed to pay MSRP, back in March, which was purported to be about 20 grand higher. The unit ended up being 40 grand higher than my equivalently equipped '07, based on a "window sticker" which appears to have been created after the car departed Emden, Germany, on a boat. Now comes a factory to dealer rebate for unsold '08's, which will surely not help my resale (oxymoron, or moron, as you wish). I could have retraded the deal, by refusing it, but that would have only hurt the dealer (no tears, but I do have to live with the guy). Speaking of dealers, apparently they had been told to "punch" unsold units, thus making them technically resales, which would presumably enable discounting without appearing to have cut list prices. I am told that having done that, those units are now not eligible for the factory rebate. Talk about humping your customer and your dealer. I am guessing that Vokswagen AG probably thinks they have sold more than they have, which would explain why the "punched" units can't get rebate help. If all this is accurate, it certainly impacts future relationships, all the way around. Comments, anyone?
 

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I guess I'm a little confused. If the Dollar strengthened between the time of order and delivery wouldn't that have made the car cheaper? And then a weak Euro would have made the conversion more expensive for Audi. Maybe I misunderstood. In any case, this is another reason buying a NEW car is not such a good idea, and unfortunately your timing couldn't have been worse, but who knew what was on the economic horizon last March. I'm sure a slightly used LP560 could be had for 10's of thousands less than MSRP now. OUCH! :(

At least you stood by your word and the deal, that's to be admired.

Will be interesting to see if Lamborghini even survives this mess.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Actually, the math works the other way. The car is built in Europe, with parts, labor, and shipping paid in Euros. Only the dealer, and by extension, when he sells it, the buyer, pay in Dollars. Since the Dollar is now worth more, when the factory converts the monies back to Euros, they get 20% more at their end, because in the conversion, the Dollar has bought more Euros. For some time, the Euro has been going up against the Dollar, which was being passed to Dollar buyers immediately, in the form of ever increasing base prices. That they have elected to keep the change, so to speak, while a tad greedy, can be excused, but not the accompanying price increases, at the levels they have chosen. That's a double whammy. I only buy new exotics. The short term ownersip profile of many of those can produce a different driving approach by the original owner(s), and I don't want to find out 10,000 miles later, when something drops. I also doubt that I could have found a baby blue LP 560, wth my custom blue and yellow interior. Most dealers have sold few, and current inventory is top heavy with unsold '08's. They can have their money, but they need to know that guys like us, who buy them, aren't as dumb as we look, and next time, our choice may be another make. As for dealers, there will be a lot fewer. Build rates will drop enormously, as financing, and the ability to finance, will decrease markedly, especially among the sector that has helped drive the current build rate to historic annual numbers. Nothing personal, but I'd wager a few Euros that Winkelmann and friends walk the plank, once the big boys in Germany add up the numbers, and count the unsold units.
 

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OK, understood. Looking at financials through June of this year, production and sales up about 5%. I'm sure the second half will look much worse, but I'd be shocked if Winkelmann was ousted. Everybody had hailed him as the savior producing record sales and profits, because he didn't see this coming is no shame on him. Because America produced fluff jobs that unfortunately were what drove those sales and profits, but were also not sustainable, and built an economy that doesn't work unless leveraged to the hilt - shame on us!
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Produced units do not equal sold units. That is why my earlier comment on vehicles piling up at dealers, some of which, supposedly are categorized as sold, but are not receiving rebates, because to do so would reveal they may still be unsold. It is IMPORTANT to note that what I am saying is "hearsay", as the lawyers say, but it is from good sources. Maybe it's true...maybe not. Any dealer can tell us if it is baloney, or not. Many read these threads, so speak up, guys, and correct me.. I am curious, too.
 

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It seems that no matter the vehicle teh story remains the same.....the customer get shafted when buying a new automobile. If the company/dealer aren't gouging you when purchasing from a dealer's inventory by including packages/option you don't really want, they play games with the dollars & cents. Such a shame that a buyer of an exotic has to deal with the same ole B.S.
 

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You've got to take some solace in the fact that when you 'special order' a new car like this, at least you know that what you purchased was uniquely made with the color and options that you wanted.
But since sales are in the tank right now and I believe they won't be producing as many cars this year (just to have them sit unsold), I doubt that the used value of the car will be dramatically affected. I'm sure dealers will be giving some nice discounts on the LP560 just to make sales, but how many cars will come to the USA this year as compared to years past ? From what I hear, the dealerships are just not accepting vehicles to be shipped to them on a routine schedule any longer; otherwise, if they do, even more will close. I'm sure this is the case now, worldwide.
Basically, as long as they are not pumping the cars out the way they used to, AND, they can still survive, it might shake out. Several months ago, I had no doubts that the factory would offer the dealers some incentives to move out all those 2008's; there are just too many sitting at dealerships.
I definitely think they made an error in throwing the LP560 Spyder into the ring at this time (especially with it's even higher MSRP). That could have waited, a bit.
They also, IMO, do not market their cars to the correct demographic presently. They still seem to think that all those 'twenty-somethings' with their creative leveraged financing, 15 year loan gimmicks, etc. are still out there; they are dust.
Anyone agree ? :confused:
 

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but who knew what was on the economic horizon last March.
Ray, how quickly you forget the Bull (me). I'm not going to ramp into a big economic discussion from this though.

Gary, I think you and I are going to get along splendidly.

Jake, I agree that the young guys making big bonuses that were marginal to begin with (hedge fund wiz kids, real estate "tycoons") are toast/history/dust for the most part.

This sort of reminds me of what Mercedes recently did. A shirt tail (by marriage) aunt bought a 2007 Mercedes ML. From what I understand, they repackaged the '08's removing many features from the standard list, made them options, and lowered the base price. Now, if you equipped a 2008 in exactly the same way as you could have had a standard 2007, it is more expensive, though it seems (to the less financially savvy) cheaper due to a lower base MSRP. Hidden inflation, it's always been around and is not going away. Same thing happens when the price for your Chinese dinner stays the same for years but one day you notice that you aren't getting the same amount of food.
 

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"They can have their money, but they need to know that guys like us, who buy them, aren't as dumb as we look, and next time, our choice may be another make"
My car has lost value this year, thats how it is. You havent been down the FNA path yet, there are a lot of 430/599 etc owners suffering worse than you as they paid well over MSRP all controlled by the FNA "entitled attitude" network, I have never felt that from Lamborghini, and so far unlike Ferrari, I havent see any dour sales projections, yet. Perhaps that is due to Lamborghini production is much lower than Ferrari to start with. I still think Ferrari is still planning on producing close to 10,000 units next year from what I have seen...
 

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norcal2,
I have also been wondering if the "over MSRP game" will continue to work for FNA into the future. After all, that stunt is a North American phenomenon.

Jake
 

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Ibut who knew what was on the economic horizon last March.
Wait, I can expand without getting gritty. I just can't help myself. :evil:

Who could have known what was coming;
1. Students of Austrian economic theory.
2. Those who believe the Kondratieff Long Wave theory.
3. Those who defend a bimetallic backed currency.
 

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About three years ago my wife and I decided we wanted a bigger house. We also decided we wanted to partly finance it. We shopped around, got the best deal and then went for a 'fixed' interest rate, which means we know exactly what we will be paying for the next ten years, regardless of general economy (and hence, fluctuations in interest rates). We closed the deal 'in tempore non suspecto', I admit, so we did the right thing, considering what has happened since. Point is: when you go to a dealer and buy a Lambo, aren't you able to get the same sort of agreement? I think: if you want to play, you have to be prepared to lose.
Taurean: you're entitled to give me a lecture here :)
.
 

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Wait, I can expand without getting gritty. I just can't help myself. :evil:

Who could have known what was coming;
1. Students of Austrian economic theory.
2. Those who believe the Kondratieff Long Wave theory.
3. Those who defend a bimetallic backed currency.
And you saw all that hu? I hope you make allot of money off this down turn bull because you and those others will be left in the dust when things pick up. I have faith in American greed. We're not going to sit and take this for long! :p

Here's some other things to think about.

1.) As long as the Dow and stays beaten down, and thus the American Capitalistic system, you will never be able to afford a Lamborghini or even be able to have a better than average standard of living..

2.) I checked my portfolio and was surprised to see an Austrian Mutual fund I had forgotten about. DOWN 58%. Yeah they've gotten things figured out. I would imagine the amount of money sitting on the sidelines right now surpasses the entire GNP of Austria. Guess where it's going when things bottom out. You guessed it, right back in the U.S. market.

3.) As long as gold is attractive we will stay in this funk, you'll still not be able to afford that Lambo, try paying your bills with gold.

4.) Lamborghin's very image is excess, born by the American capitalistic system. Love one, gotta love both.
 

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Well, I saw your other post about a stick in the eye instead of a Diablo in the snow, so I'm not taking this to heart. That said:
1. The DOW is not the epitome of the capitalist system. Freedom and entrepreneurial spirit are enough to constitute a capitalist system.
2. Austria and Austrian economics are two different things. How about, the theories pontificated by Ludwig Von Mises? Have a Ludwig Von Mises fund you need to trash?
3. Try to understand, that when I talk about a bimetallic currency system, it is in the form of gold backing the currency while sitting in a vault. The amount of notes (paper) can only be tied to the volume of gold that is in the vault. I don't expect people to pass around gold coins when an ounce is $835. That's lunacy. The point is to have one unit of currency valued at a specified ratio to the ounce of gold, not variable. That way, the relative value of the unit of currency cannot be manipulated in the hands of a very select and small group of very powerful men.
4. Again, I love capitalism, but I understand that there is really very little that any one person can do, b!tch and moan as they may, to try and stop the train.

While we're on this (sorry for the thread hijack), anyone that says we CAN'T be on a gold standard, but gripes about inflation, is a hypocrite. Under a gold standard, you do not have price inflation. Under a managed currency system (read: fiat) you will always have price inflation. End of story.

Ray, I'm dying for you to read about the passage of the Federal Reserve on Christmas Eve, 1913. While you're at it:
Kondratieff Long Wave Cycles Past and Present

Here's my prediction: Dead cat bounce (bear market rally) mirroring the 1929/1930 winter. Just as people are letting out a sigh of relief, you'll get smacked, HARD. If I am wrong, I'll still stick around, but I'll never, ever, mention economics on the board again. Count on it.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Back on subject, I am curious that no one at the dealer level has commented on my post regarding possible inconsistencies on reportedly sold vehicles, and the current factory to dealer rebate.
 

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Yeah, sorry about that. I guess there's not experience with that right now.

Allow me to make a final comment to bull, then we'll be done. Which is I'm sorry to see you are that pessimistic. You can choose to follow what ever theory you wish, but pessimists never prosper. Instead of following a system that predicts DOW 1000. ie the end of civilization, as a young person you should be ready to pounce on all the opportunities presenting themselves.

I will bookmark that article along with my Nostradamus articles. :rolleyes:
 

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Back on subject, I am curious that no one at the dealer level has commented on my post regarding possible inconsistencies on reportedly sold vehicles, and the current factory to dealer rebate.
I don't think that they would want to touch this. It's like cutting your nose off to spite your face.;)
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Precisely. That is why I put it on here. Failure (or unwillingness) to respond would seem to validate it.:wave:
 

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So are you looking for a GM type Employee discount on a Lamborghini? You see where that got GM? You have to know that when you buy a $200,000+ car there is going to be a lot of profit there. There has to be based on production. Yes "regular" cars can be discounted more based on volume. If you want to be able to say that you think the 2020 Lamborghini is awesome you have to pay to keep the company open. If you were worried about the money you should have bought one from Roy at a huge discount with hardly any miles. I understand the point the you are making but if you want to play you have to pay.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
I don't mind paying. Just not more than anyone else. I have 2 Lambos and a Bentley GT, amongst a total of 10 cars. I get it. My earlier comment had to do with what VW would do when they find out they have been setting build rates based on possibly incorrect sales figures.
 
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